Interview: Sarah Katherine and Ava McCoy on their new release “make it make sense”

Last Friday, indie artist, Sarah Katherine Lawless, came out with a stripped down version of her song “make it make sense” featuring fellow musician, Ava McCoy. The collaboration brings together Sarah Katherine’s indie pop-rock roots and Ava’s folk, Americana sound, creating an emotional take on the song. We had the opportunity to speak with both Sarah Katherine and Ava about the collaboration and how they have inspired each other both as musicians and songwriters. Check it out below.

SOUND STAGE: Tell us a little bit about yourselves and who you are as musicians.

AVA MCCOY: Well, my name's Ava, and I have played music my whole life. I've been writing songs since I was probably like 12 years old, and I got really serious about it in high school. I'm definitely indie-folk Americana, raised on that style of music, but also a lot of R&B, and a lot of soul music. Nowadays, I'm just really trying to surround myself with women who are musicians, just trying to write positively and express the experience of what it is to be a woman in the music industry, and just a woman in general. I'm just trying to be an advocate for those who can't advocate for themselves. That's what I'm up to these days! 

SARAH KATHERINE LAWLESS: Kind of similar to Ava, I’ve been writing my whole life! However, I ended up going the acting route for a little bit and went to school for that. Then that took a different turn. Over time I realized, “Why am I so unhappy?” “What do I actually want to be doing with my life?” And it had always been songwriting, you know, it was always there. I'm so excited to have Ava here, because she's always inspired me so much as a writer. But I definitely grew up surrounded by music. My dad had an interesting collection of music. He was kind of listening to everything, but I was definitely a pop girly when I was little. I was totally listening to the hits. Eventually that changed because my brother has really good music taste and I was able to start listening to artists like Frank Ocean, Sydney Gish, Soccer Mommy, and just a bunch of other people. And now I'm here and trying to go for it! 

SOUND STAGE: So your song together, “make it make sense” just came out. Sarah Katherine, you released the original version of this song about a year ago, but it had more of an indie pop-rock sound. What made you decide to do this stripped down version? 

SARAH KATHERINE: I've always loved when artists do this because you get to hear the song the way they first sounded when they were written. It was just me and my guitar when I wrote “make it make sense.” And I mean, gosh, it's about a situationship, a very long situationship. With those things, while they can be so annoying and you have a lot of pent up anger over time, they're just sad. You know what I mean? That cycle is never ending and I really felt like this reimagined version would capture that feeling. And who better to do it with than Ava? I've loved her music for so long and I just felt like [Ava] would bring out the lyrics in this song a lot. 

AVA: Aw, I adore you.

SOUND STAGE: I love both versions equally for totally different reasons. In your original version I can hear the anger. But in this one, I feel the sadness. When you listen back to “make it make sense” now, does it feel different from when you first wrote it or recorded it? 

SARAH KATHERINE: Yeah, I mean it's crazy to think that it's been a year and some change, because I feel so different, you know? What's really cool about this is Ava and I recorded “make it make sense” almost a year ago actually. So we had been sitting with it for a while, and I'm really glad that it came out now. Not only do I just feel definitely different as an artist, but it's like the cycles of anything. You have anger first and then you go through the sadness. 

SOUND STAGE: Can you both tell us a little bit about this collaboration? How did you two meet? Sarah Katherine, how did you decide that you wanted Ava specifically on this track? 

SARAH KATHERINE: My partner is actually a musician too, and he's so talented. His name is Alexander Walk and he's amazing. That's actually how I was introduced to Ava because he and Ava are best friends, and he also plays in Ava's band! But the funniest part is we actually met on the street. I was walking down and I saw her and I was like, “Oh my god Ava!” And we honestly had a connection right at the start. I just immediately knew you were so down to earth and so cool. And then we did a little jam session. I remember being so nervous because you and Alexander know what you're doing, and I didn’t know what I was doing! But the cool thing is, throughout Alexander and I's relationship, I've been able to see Ava grow as an artist because I was like their little groupie. I would always be going to the shows and supporting them. Really, that's why I wanted Ava to be on this. I felt really close to you and connected to you as a friend, as a person, and as an artist. Those are the people I've been really wanting to work with. The ones that you get along with outside of the artistry itself. Did I miss anything, Ava? 

AVA: Oh my gosh, I have lots to say. Sarah Katherine has always been so supportive of me as an artist. She was there at my first show ever with a full band and has always been so consistent as a friend, as a collaborator, and as a creative. She is somebody that I really look up to and admire. Visually she is so on it and so talented, she has such a clear idea of her brand and her sound. I just really love working with people who are so down to earth, real, say what they mean, and follow through on things, and you've always been that way. I feel like working with you was a no brainer when you asked me to be a part of it. I love writing songs that could be taken in two different contexts and two different styles and feelings. Our friend Ben Coleman, who produced it, is just so lovely and takes such great notes and kind of lets us lead the way when you work with him. Which is really rare, especially when working with men sometimes. He was really encouraging and let us take risks. The lyrics have always spoken to me in this song, and the chord changes emotionally really hit you. I haven't stopped listening to it since we made it. I was just so excited getting all the different versions of the demos and the mixes. Shooting the visuals together has also been so fun. It's just been, honestly, the best collaboration I've probably ever done.

SARAH KATHERINE: It’s crazy that you brought up Ben Coleman because I think that was another reason why I really wanted you on this track. I met Ben because of you! I remember I had seen one of your shows at Rubulad. We went and got pizza after that show and you were asking me about my music, and I told you it's about time that I record an EP. I'd been sitting on music for so long I just wanted to do it. You were the one who told me to reach out to Ben. It was a full circle moment having you come in on the song. It was literally just the three of us working on it and it was really fun. 

SOUND STAGE: I can't think of a better collaboration, your voices mesh so beautifully together. How do your musical styles or influences complement each other? 

AVA: We both grew up doing theater. Sarah Katherine more so than me I would say. But, I feel like we both love belting moments in songs, so I feel like that was definitely a crossover. We've also really connected over female powerhouse alt rock indie, like Fiona Apple and Alanis Morrisette. We also made a collaborative playlist which I'm excited about.

SARAH KATHERINE: Yup, that’s coming out!

SOUND STAGE: Oh I will definitely be saving that. 

SARAH KATHERINE: I feel like something about your writing that has always struck a chord is that it’s very poetic and there's a lot of storytelling. That's something I've always tried to do in my writing. That's why I felt like it was a perfect crossover because our music goes so well together. I feel like our voices too when we are harmonizing. It just was perfect. Also, Ava you are so good at guitar. Seeing Ava live, with a band, but also playing herself is incredible. 

AVA: Thank you!

SARAH KATHERINE: I feel like [Ava has] a background, like you were saying, in folk and Americana. I definitely came from a little bit more of an indie pop, indie rock background. But over time, I’ve learned I really love the folk stuff. I have learned so much and been inspired by that genre and seeing other people do it. It was cool to kind of see that change over time and how it complements each other. 

SOUND STAGE: Ava, do you play the guitar on this track? 

AVA: I didn't on this one, it was Sarah Katherine.

SOUND STAGE: I love the guitar on this. You do such a great job of making sure it's at the forefront of the song without drowning out the lyrics. You hear it all perfectly at once. 

SARAH KATHERINE: Thanks! That's honestly a shout out to Ben too. I think Ava and I both try to do this in our music, we really want the lyrics to be there. We want the voice to be heard and we don't want it to be drowned out with a bunch of crazy shit to put it lightly, you know what I mean? Ben was able to do that so nicely, and work with what we were giving him opposed to making it crazy. I think I have a tendency to want to add things because I get really excited and passionate about it. Ben really was able to remind me that this is an acoustic version and that we should keep this stripped and not go too crazy.

SOUND STAGE: Also, just wanted to say I love that Ava mentioned you both being inspired by Alanis Morissette and Fiona Apple, I really hear that in both of your music. 

AVA: I feel like we've really bonded over the fact that we both are big feelers. I think we love writing about all the ranges of emotions and putting as much passion into it as we can. Sarah Katherine has written some of the most beautiful love songs I've ever heard in my life and also some of the most heart wrenching, anger fueled, but relatable song lyrics that I have ever heard. She inspires me a lot as a writer to just fully lean into whatever you’re feeling.

SARAH KATHERINE: That is the best compliment I think I’ve ever heard. Seriously, I will keep that forever. 

SOUND STAGE: I just want to talk a little bit more about the song. It's about a failed situationship and all the feelings and overthinking that comes with it. I love the lyrics in the song and how it flows. It feels like a stream of consciousness a little bit, which I think makes it even more relatable. Can you tell us a little bit about your songwriting process on this one? 

SARAH KATHERINE: I remember it very vividly, actually. I was living in my first New York apartment. We had a basement and there was a bathroom that was maybe the most private place because nobody could really hear you. I remember going in there to write the song and it just felt like a stream of consciousness, that really was what it was. It came really easy and really quick and maybe it was because all the feelings over time were just like spilling. A lot of the song is about stuff that I have gone through, but it is actually about a friend of mine’s situationship. What happened was the day before I started writing it, we sat down for coffee and everything came to a halt, and just everything spilled out. I saw a lot of what she was going through and stuff that I had never actually said to people whom I had gone through that same situation with. I think because that anger had been there for so long, that's why I just spilled it out. 

SOUND STAGE: I love that your friend now has her own personal song to scream to. Ava, what was your approach to connecting with the song and making it your own as well? 

AVA: For me, this song really applied to a friendship breakup that I had a while ago and a lot of the anger that I felt around that. I felt like a lot of the blame was put on me. I never really got to say my piece. So I put a lot of those feelings into this song and it felt like closure to me singing these lyrics. I was trying to be an active communicator, and that just wasn't appreciated, and I was slandered. So with feeling that anger, what better place to put it than in a song? 

SOUND STAGE: I could totally feel that translating over to a friendship breakup for sure. My last question for both of you, is there anything we can expect in the future from you guys? More releases? More live shows? 

SARAH KATHERINE: Definitely, yeah! I've been working on an EP this past full year, so I'm hoping to either drop another single at the end of this year and then start the full EP rollout in the next year, which feels like a long time, but it's going to come so fast. I also have some exciting shows coming up. I'm trying to do one every month to not go too crazy. 

AVA: I just put out an album May and I also just dropped two bonus tracks that I'm excited about. I'm letting those kind of sit and do their thing. I'm planning on doing a live recorded set of those two songs on my friend's rooftop, which I'm excited about. 

SARAH KATHERINE: Wait, that's so exciting I didn’t know that! 

AVA: Yeah, I'm really stoked. I want to do the sunset, cityscape, birds, you know, that whole vibe. I've just been writing a ton. I've been writing a lot of love songs because I'm very much in love and that's new for me. I'm trying to exercise that muscle because I've written a lot of sad songs historically. I’m hoping to just do a couple singles, maybe one by the end of the year, but I'm trying to not put too much pressure on myself, because I just put out such a wonderful, large project that I'm so proud of. But, I’m always looking to play shows, hoping to do some sort of touring in the next year. I've never toured, so that would be a dream. I’m also looking to collaborate more. 

SOUND STAGE: Well, I love the new album, I didn't mention that earlier. Sarah Katherine, I know it came out a year ago, but I also love the EP. I’m so excited to hear more. I think both of you have the most potential. I can't wait to see you guys just absolutely flourish.